Their Argument Over Gabriel And How They "resolved" It Set Up The Final Fifteen Of Ep6 And Is A Microcosm

their argument over Gabriel and how they "resolved" it set up the Final Fifteen of ep6 and is a microcosm of their relationship issues

The fight between Aziraphale and Crowley about Gabriel goes like this:

Aziraphale believes that it's Safest for them to deal with the gabriel situation by being involved and solving it together.

Crowley believes that it's Safest for them to get as far away from the Gabriel situation as possible, either by removing gabriel from them or themselves from him.

Aziraphale also believes that it's Right to help Gabriel, because Aziraphale believes in the innate goodness of everyone and everything.

Crowley believes that it's Right to not help Gabriel or frankly to care about him at all, because Gabriel hurt Aziraphale repeatedly over millennia and then tried to destroy him.

They approach this issue with such a difference in their core beliefs and values that they have to disagree, it's inevitable. And that would be fine. Except that the way they resolve this argument is utter bullshit.

First off, Aziraphale responds to Crowley with an ultimatum: do it my way or leave. (Which, hello, trauma from being cast out of heaven? Wtf Aziraphale. )

Crowley responds by telling Aziraphale he'll have to do this alone, and then predictably leaving.

Crowley only changes his mind and returns because he learns that Aziraphale is in real existential peril. Then they do a series of Things, none of which actually revolve their big disagreement.

Crowley offers a sort-of apology ("can we take it as stated?") but doesn't say what he's apologizing for. He doesn't tell Aziraphale what he thinks he got wrong (spoiler: because he absolutely doesn't think he Was wrong, and his belief is reinforced by the threat of destruction hanging over Aziraphale's head). It's "I'm sorry for whatever I said, get in the car" all over again.

Aziraphale doesn't even apologize lmao, and why should he? He must be right, because Crowley's back! And Crowley's doing their ritualistic "apology" dance that they use in place of actual fucking conversation. So Aziraphale doesnt need to acknowledge anything about his line of reasoning or his belief system, they can just carry on.

Especially because, crucially, Aziraphale doesn't know that Crowley was actually right! And helping Gabriel will put them both in extreme danger! And he doesn't know this, because Crowley didn't tell him!

Crowley didnt tell Aziraphale about the Book of Life punishment because he believes Aziraphale is Safest not worrying about that, and that it's Right for him to protect Aziraphale from that hurtful, harmful knowledge.

They literally do. not. discuss this issue ever again. They have no idea, or none that we're textually shown anyway, why the other reacted the way they did to Gabriel. They simply move forward with the problem, without even an iota of enlightenment about each other's points of view. They think they already know each other perfectly, right? They've been talking for millions of years, Crowley loves rescuing Aziraphale, etc.

So then we get to ep6. And it's really the same fundamental disagreement:

Aziraphale believes they will be Safest with their hands in the game.

Aziraphale believes it's Right to force Heaven, through what he has been manipulated into thinking is his new authority, to do Good (actual moral good, like he and Crowley do).

Crowley believes it's Safest for them both to stay as far away from the machinations of heaven, and by extension hell, as possible.

Crowley believes it's Right for him to reject Heaven as they once rejected him, to reject their whole dichotomous system in fact. He believes it's Right for Aziraphale to reject Heaven too, because Heaven tried to destroy Aziraphale.

And once again, Crowley doesn't tell Aziraphale of the danger they're in - Armageddon the Sequel, plus Archangels being demoted and having their memory wiped.

They still do not and cannot understand one another's motives and beliefs here. Because they have never had this freedom of choice before these last few years, and in that time they have never talked about this openly. Weirdly, Gabriel's arrival gave them a chance to hash all this out. In another world, maybe they knew exactly what the other wanted, and could therefore choose each other at this critical juncture.

But that's not what happened.

(cue my "the irony of the serpent of Eden protecting someone he loves from knowledge" tag).

Edit to say, I have Thoughts about Why they communicate like this, which I'm trying to gather for another post.

More Posts from Gentildonna and Others

1 year ago

imagine: you get your memories back after years of amnesia to find out your whole species is dead and earth doesn’t exist anymore. that the only thing left of your culture is your weird ex and his busted honda civic that barely even works that he stole from the government when he was 13. And he’s been taking members of an alien species for trips in his honda civic and they’re all like “woah it’s so cool” and you get upset because it’s NOT COOL it’s a honda civic, the turn signals don’t even work “wow it can go up hills” yeah OF COURSE IT CAN GO UP HILLS EVERY CAR COULD DO THAT. but they’ve never seen a car before so everything it does is the coolest thing ever. And your ex’s only tool is a fucking screwdriver which is somehow also cool to this dumbass alien species even though it’s a fucking screwdriver so you just look like an idiot screaming about how none of this is even cool it’s actually really shitty but your whole planet is gone so you can’t even prove it but also you’ve had a constant drumming sounding in your head since you were 10 slowly driving you insane. I would become evil too.


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1 year ago

I'm so jealous of David Tennant, like 1/3 of me is just attracted to him and the other percentage just wants to be him... gender? Either; whenever you want. Hair? Fucking fabulous. Teeth? So nice and fangs to boot.

Jelly


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1 year ago

I’m emotionally ruined by the fact that Aziraphale hasn’t broken out of his heavenly conditioning. He still loves doing good. He gets happy when people tell him he’s an angel and says “it’s nice to tell people about the good things you’ve done now that I’m not reporting to Heaven”. He will literally put himself in harm’s way to make sure he does the Good and Right thing.

It can’t be understated how much Heaven’s influence still impacts on him. Aziraphale has been created, ordained and conditioned to believe it and he can’t just switch it off or walk away. Crowley didn’t get the choice. He was Fallen. He was kicked out and - as per the rules of toxic and terrifying cults - Aziraphale was always told for centuries and millennia, Falling was the worst thing that could happen. If you’re bad, you’ll be forced out. If you’re bad, you’re not one of Us. You’re one of Them.

When he did something he perceived as Right (ie. saving innocent children from death), but knew it wasn’t what Heaven intended, he broke down. Crowley found him a crying, shaking wreck afterwards because he was so convinced he was Evil. He was so convinced he was going to be dragged to Hell and that he was now a demon because he did one thing that saved some children but because it wasn’t a specific directive, it was Bad.

It shapes so much about him and it’s why the whole series looks like he’s having so much fun doing silly human things, but there’s this brittleness to it. He’s happy and excited and he’s doing his human-life things and having a lovely time, but he’s also constantly stressed because of the Need To Do Good. From the moment Gabriel turns up, he’s a nervous wreck and is trying to hide it by Doing Good, by Solving the Problem, by Fixing Things, by being so active and reactive rather than letting himself think about it. It’s a sign of exactly how frantic he is that he starts giving away his books and letting humans touch them.

Watch his face when the Archangels show up unexpectedly: that isn’t joy. That’s blind terror. He’s so afraid of doing the wrong thing in Heaven’s eyes, even though he made the active choice to do so because it was the Right thing to do. He’s a Guardian and he will protect, but he is so very afraid of the repercussions, even now. 

At the end of S1, Crowley said “they’re gearing up for the big one” so Aziraphale’s not oblivious. He knows a big one is coming. He knows something worse than the Antichrist will be on its way. And he’s trying so hard to pretend that everything is normal and fine and if he ignores all the looming bad stuff, it won’t happen. If we don’t say anything about it, nothing has to change.

But then the changes come knocking at his door holding a box and the choice is gone. He can keep trying to blinker himself to it, but then there are angels and demons in the bookshop and he’s had to use his halo and everything is falling apart.

So when he realises that he can get himself into a position where he can guarantee those repercussions won’t happen to Crowley? He will absolutely take it. He says himself “I don’t want to go back to Heaven”, but the instant the Metatron offers him a free pass for Crowley, to take Crowley out of both Heaven and Hell’s sightlines, to keep him safe (Another bee inside the hive, if you will), no wonder he grabs it with both hands.

The tragedy is that Crowley thinks that when they saved the world together, that was the end of Heaven’s influence in Aziraphale. When he was cast out the split between him and Heaven was sharp and clean. He doesn’t - he can’t - understand how deeply it has tangled around Aziraphale. It’s built into Aziraphale’s entire being and unravelling it isn’t that simple. Aziraphale’s trauma is a horrible, terrible Gordian knot and Crowley can’t understand that he couldn’t simply cut through it, because that’s just not how Aziraphale works.


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1 year ago

How much have we lost!

Specifically – a chance to see David Tennant in the role of "a cross-dressing, cocaine-snorting therapist", OMFG.

"Screenwriter Paula Milne, who wrote The Politician's Husband, says Tennant can convey "a kind of damaged humanity… although he may not have been that likeable you felt he had gone on a journey where he became that person".

"Sometimes when you write a very tough, muscular character the actor says, 'yes, but will they like me?' That is a question he never asked. He took it on and delivered it."

She previously discussed another project with Tennant, about a "cross-dressing, cocaine-snorting therapist". Despite his enthusiasm, it proved "too out there" for the BBC or Channel 4, Milne recalls. "He was up for it. He read it and said he would love to do it." Perhaps, in a parallel universe, he still will.”

If only I could go and get a glimpse into this parallel universe!

I love The Politician's Husband – it's definitely in my personal top of things DT has done for television. It provides a gripping and poignant insight into the psyche of an essentially decent human being, whose chain of decisions becomes a downhill slide that irrevocably ruins his life, his family, burns him out – and literally kills someone he loves. Heartbreaking stuff.  

BTW, I'm actually quite surprised that anything is really "too out there" for Channel 4. Reminds me of the scene from Life Of Mars where Sam Tyler, during the raid on the porn studio, casually remarks: "Hardcore? I've seen worse on Channel 4". And that was a decade earlier!

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2013/nov/14/david-tennant-profile 


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8 months ago

😟 Who's Really the Sorriest Doctor?

When we think of an apologetic Doctor, the 10th Doctor immediately leaps to mind. But is he really the most apologetic incarnation? Here's a number crunch of all the times the Doctor has apologised ...

These are from televised episodes/telemovie only, using keywords like 'sorry,' 'apologise,' and 'apology.' Retracted apologies or those used for clarification haven't been included. Episodes counted in serials for classic era. And of course, there's not guarantee how many of these were genuine apologies ...

😟 Who's Really The Sorriest Doctor?

😟 Who's Really The Sorriest Doctor?

Key Observations

Most Apologetic Doctor (By Average): The 15th Doctor takes the crown with a whopping 4.67 apologies per episode. Though, given his short stint so far, there's still plenty of time for that to change.

The Usual Suspects: The 10th Doctor, unsurprisingly, ranks high with 2.79 apologies per episode. But the 11th and 13th Doctors nudge him aside with averages of 3.09 and 3.16, respectively.

Not So Sorry?: The 1st Doctor had a measly 0.70 apologies per episode. Grumpy and not in the least bit sorry about it.

The Rise of Remorse: There's a clear trend of increasing apologies as we move through the modern era. Recent incarnations (10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, and 15th) seem to be getting more in touch with their feelings.

The Sorriest of Them All: The Tenth Doctor might not be the sorriest on average, but with 145 total apologies, he's got the highest raw number of sorries.

Companion-Driven Apologies: Some Doctors apologise more depending on their companions. For instance, the 12th Doctor's high apology rate coincided with Clara and less so for Bill.

If you like data, you'll like this.

Whoniverse Facts for Friday by GIL

Any purple text is educated guesswork or theoretical. More content ... →📫Got a question? | 📚Complete list of Q+A and factoids →😆Jokes |🩻Biology |🗨️Language |🕰️Throwbacks |🤓Facts →🫀Gallifreyan Anatomy and Physiology Guide (pending) →⚕️Gallifreyan Emergency Medicine Guides →📝Source list (WIP) →📜Masterpost If you're finding your happy place in this part of the internet, feel free to buy a coffee to help keep our exhausted human conscious. She works full-time in medicine and is so very tired 😴


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1 year ago

I'm not particularly on board with "Crowley is Raphael" theory, but that's a very interesting take on this (and from a strictly logical point of view!). And though I'm not exactly swayed, I'm more and more intrigued. We'll just have to wait - and hopefully, see!

where the heck is Raphael

I assume we all agree that the narrative is strongly implying that Crowley was but a common angel (the 25 lazarii miracle, the high rank clearance, what he says to Gabriel about knowing how it feels, how he does not tell Aziraphale his name when they first meet during the galaxy creation scene, the fact he knows The Metatron -an angry and flame surrounded versione of The Metatron, Saraqael having worked side by side with him, and also maybe some too powerful miracles here and there like in S1 when he was able to froze time for himself, Aziraphale and Adam in a sort of Heavenly space in the middle of a Very Important Moment) ...so the point is which not common angel was he.

From my very personal point of view the main thing in favor of him being Lucifer is that I would love that sentence in S1 to be the opposite of what we thought it to be. I'm referrinf to: "I was just minding my business one day and then, oh lookie here, it's Lucifer and the guys"; the last part would therefore be not something Crowley said, but something that was addressed to him. Someone came there, took a look at him and went "ohh, it's Lucifer and the guys" and started to complaing about the food. I appreciate this kind of 'irrelevant subversion' of how you first pictured a told (and not yet shown) scene in your mind. Also it would be fun for Lucifer to be, in this universe, not the mind behind the rebellion but someone who was just minding his business and someone else saw as the right person to go to to give further resonance to some minor issues about the food.

But.

But from the same very personal point of view, I'd love for Crowley to be Raphael because I would love for the Great Raphael to be a fallen angel in this retelling of christian mythology. Lucifer is THE fallen angel, everyone knows he was the first to cast down the pearly gates; most christians associate him with Satan, call him the first sinner, consider him inherently baaad.

But Raphael? One of the greatest angels? One of the saints? To be one of the fallen?

Just. Lovely.

Also I recognize the story has an important hole here:

Where the heck is Raphael?

At least Lucifer was mentioned, also Hell has so far not had the same amount of screentime as Heaven has, so I don't see the absence of Lucifer (given that in this universe Satan≠Lucifer) as deliberate as the absense of Raphael.

Everyone is familiar with Gabriel, Michael and Raphael as they are familiar with Lucifer. Yet Raphael is never shown nor mentioned.

Everyone is familiar with Gabriel, Michael and Raphael, almost no one is familiar with Uriel and Saraqael and no one is familiar with hecking Sandalphon. Yet they chose not to use the famous trio Gabriel-Michael-Raphael to straightforward let the audience know 'this is Heaven's Small Council'. No, they get rid of Raphael like he was a barely known angel, like he was an angel no one knows the name of before reading about angeology, like he was a Sandalphon.

Listen, this is deliberate.

The absence of Raphael is deliberate.

And I would love for him to be the 'angel who fell because he was asking too many questions'.

I would love for him to be the powerful Supreme Archangel that was just minding his business when Lucifer and the boys reached out to.

May I add.

...even if Crowley is not Raphael, I'm sure Raphael would pop up somewhere else, because the narrative has strongly pointed in the direction of a fallen Great One.

I refuse to believe The Metraton said

"For one Prince of Heaven to be cast into the outer darkness makes a good story. For it to happen twice makes it look like there is some sort of institutional problem." about some hecking Sandalphon.

--

Little addition because I have never seen this Very Valid Point mentioned:

Crowley gives away a lot of younger sibling energy when interacting with Gabriel and Middle Child Michael 😌


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1 year ago
All Praise To DT – The Patron Saint And/or Totemic Being Of Us All, Who Cannot Sit Normally. 

All praise to DT – the patron saint and/or totemic being of us all, Who Cannot Sit Normally. 

I, for one, find this exact arrangement of lower extremities quite comfortable. Years of reading crouched in various crooks and nannies + breaststroke swimming have got my joints used to being put in positions that are not conventionally normal for the average human. Having knees that do… well, turn outwards, I guess is the right way to put it –  is pretty useful. 

Full credit for tag furniture_abuse goes to the incredible @mizgnomer, of course. (I'm awfully sorry if I'm breaching the Tumblr etiquette there, tagging non-mutual, but that blog is a bona fide treasure trove of all things DT-related, especially visual stuff.  It was the reason I came to Tumblr at all, for what it's worth.)


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1 year ago

Guys. Let's talk about the Eccles cakes. Shall we?

Guys. Let's Talk About The Eccles Cakes. Shall We?

When Crowley orders six shots of espresso, Aziraphale considerately asks for something that "calms people down". Nina then suggests him to get Eccles cakes.

Now the word, "Eccles" originally means "The church". It foreshadowed the season finale where Aziraphale asks Crowley to join heaven. It is a callback to Crowley being the (sauntered-vaguely-downwards) fallen angel. Crowley was given a choice to join heaven again. To eat the Eccles cake. But he doesn't. He doesn't want to be calmed down and hushed. He has found his voice, his own side. He knows the truth about Heaven and Hell and God.

The Eccles cake is also called the "squashed fly cake' because the inside is filled with black currants. This could be a metaphor for hell. How Crowley was also asked back to hell and he said no.

Aziraphale ordering Eccles cakes shows the inner struggle that he is facing. He cares for Crowley. He wants to be there for him. But at the same time, he believes whole heartedly in heaven. He still thinks of God's plan as ineffable. As indubitable. He believes that Crowley and he will be happier in Heaven. He fails to see that even if heaven seems to be the side of "truth and light", on the inside it's all squashed flies. It's just as bad as hell. That when heaven ends life on earth it will be just as dead as hell ended it.


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1 year ago
Funny (and Kinda Revealing) Thing Is That For Years I’ve Stuck To That Moody Picture Of The Doctor
Funny (and Kinda Revealing) Thing Is That For Years I’ve Stuck To That Moody Picture Of The Doctor

Funny (and kinda revealing) thing is that for years I’ve stuck to that moody picture of the Doctor walking through the clouds/smoke to the TARDIS as my lock screen wallpaper. Then I went through a couple of official posters for GO S1, then reverted to my trusted and almost monochrome Ten… and now this.

I see some parallels, so to say.


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7 months ago
Look At How Fast David Tennant Throws Himself Down Those Stairs.
Look At How Fast David Tennant Throws Himself Down Those Stairs.

Look at how fast David Tennant throws himself down those stairs.

This is from the Doctor Who Confidential episode “Stage Fright” (which accompanied The Shakespeare Code)

You can see that the three of them (the Doctor, Martha, and Shakespeare) start together at the top of the stairs.  David runs down at breakneck speed - taking the steps at least two at a time - leaving Martha and Shakespeare far behind (Freema and Dean are running more like normal people - being careful to not to kill themselves on the old and probably rather uneven steps).  

I don’t think he can even stand up straight on those stairs - he’s crouching down because the ceiling/covering is too low for him.  He somehow even manages to make it look graceful.  Amazing!


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gentildonna - Jude_V
Jude_V

Doctor Who, Good Omens and basically everything DT is in | Not a shipper per se, but feel rather partial to tensimm f***ed-up dynamics. Some other stuff as well - Classic Rock (mostly British), Art Deco, etc

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